Dave Barnes

He was the last of his kind, a singer/songwriter resisting the advances of labels while watching his friends – Jon McLaughlin, Matt Wertz – sign one at a time. But apparently someone finally broke through (Razor & Tie) and convinced Dave Barnes of the power of a record deal. And now it seems the greater masses will find out the beauty of Barnes’ writing.

A lot has changed since the last time I interviewed Dave, so we had a lot to discuss. The conversation took several twists and turns – from the beauty/frustration of living in Nashville to his growing friendship with John Mayer – but it was always classic Dave Barnes, complete with pop culture references and thoughtful, honest answers. It’s an interesting trip inside the mind of one of Nashville’s best.

SSv: Last time I talked to you, you said that you were a dinosaur, and all of your friends were going the way of the label. And now you’re with Razor & Tie, so obviously I’d love to hear the story.

Dave Barnes: It was a really interesting conversion, or transformation, whatever word you want to use. [Laughs] We just had a really great opportunity pop up out of nowhere. A really dear friend of mine-she’s been in the industry for awhile-got hired at Razor & Tie as A&R. We’ve always talked about how much fun it would be to work together. So when it came out that she was there, she called me and said, “Hey, I really want to come to a show and bring some friends.” I was like, well, I don’t think this is a great time for this.

Oddly enough, my manager and I had just sort of actually made a pact that we weren’t going to do a deal. But when this one came along, he said, “Look man, I feel really good about this. Let’s just take this meeting and see how it goes.” We met with them after I played a show in Nashville. They hung out with us one more day. We met, and it was like I couldn’t say anything to deter them. I sort of threw out the best stuff I had to scare them off, and they just said, “That sounds great. Yeah, we’re really into that.” You know, just these crazy things that they were really excited about.

So obviously I sort of had to change the game plan at that point when they agreed to it. Because obviously, the reason I didn’t want to sign was for the freedom I would lose. And they weren’t really doing that. They offered a really, really great incentive and the ability for me to do what I do without being hindered much by what labels, I think, sometimes do. It’s a really great opportunity, and something that’s been really great so far.

SSv: What freedoms did you keep and what did you give up?

Barnes: The thing that were really important to me was to make sure I had a lot of creative control. And they were unbelievable. During the record, they stayed out of my hair and didn’t ask to hear all of the songs before you cut them. It was just really cool. They trusted me and sort of let me do what I do.

The deal is set up to be more of a joint venture deal, which means we’re both taking a risk. It’s not the label fronting all the money. We both have incentive to do well, more than the normal record deals because if it does well, I’m making quite a bit of money off the record. It’s exciting. I think more and more of those deals are popping up for artists – not with the big labels, but definitely with the labels that are smaller and you can take those kinds of risks.

SSv: Now that you’re on a label, what kinds of things are you taking advantage of?

Barnes: I’ll tell you the best thing, and it is incredible how much this helps: It’s really the fact that you’re not doing all the work anymore. There’s three people deep in every department doing what just me and my manager were doing. So it’s pretty irreplaceable, because in this world, it’s all about attention and momentum. And two people can only generate so much of that before it just either dries up or it’s not working or whatever. So, you know, it’s just incredible. The opportunities that are being provided are really overwhelming. It seems like everyday we’re getting emailed about “this magazine wants to have you in and talk to you.” It’s just been really, really cool.

SSv: Some of the bigger doors to open-what would those be?

Barnes: You know the really big doors are the tours-getting on the big tours and getting good opening slots. Like anything, you start with certain publications, magazines, or shows. Radio. You start at the bottom and sort of work your way up. So all of those things, if you want to get on Letterman, if you want to be writing songs for a movie-if you want to be doing sort of big, massive things. But, you have to start with something. So it’s been encouraging because we’re getting some traction on the ground before these places. So for now, it’s like let’s see if we can continue up the stairs so to speak.

SSv: Now, I’ve got to say from an outside perspective, it’s interesting to hear you say that you have all this creative control. Because on the new album are all these previous cuts from other albums making their way onto this label debut. And so it almost appears the opposite…

Barnes: You know, that’s a great question. Oddly enough, the label had no part of that. That was my producer. We sat down the first couple days talking about songs for the record. We knew at that point that a label was going to be involved, although we hadn’t signed the deal quite yet. And he just said, “Look man, this is sort of” … not to quote the ever-poetic Eminem … “But this is your one shot.”

It was funny, because Ed [Cash] has done so many label CDs. He said, “I really think we need to sort of hedge our bets here. And we can do the new CD, and we can do all these new songs, and it will be fine. But knowing that today’s industry gives you kind of one good swing at it, I think we’re a little smarter to put some of the songs that have more of a track record with, and a lasting effect with these songs.”

SSv: Did you agree with that?

Barnes: That was hard. So hard. He said that, and I was immediately, “No, I’m not doing that.” I felt like for my music and my fans and the integrity I’m trying to have with my career, that stamps all that out. The more he said it, the more I thought about it. I had a conversation with John Mayer one night while I was in New York. And he’s done a really good job with his career. He basically agreed with Ed. He said, “Look man, whatever it takes for you to get noticed, that’s what you’ve got to do.”

There were some really fascinating articles in Rolling Stone‘s 50th Anniversary issue. One of them was the “Future of Music.” He had some fascinating quotes, and the basic idea he was saying is there’s no such thing as “selling out” anymore. You know, there’s so much traffic now, that whatever you have to do to get noticed, people are approve now, even if you have to put your song in a Doritos commercial. Because there are 5,000 bands vying for that Doritos commercial.

It’s sort of like there’s only so many tape decks, and there are billions of tapes. It may look a little of wimpy that you decided to do a Doritos commercial. But, you know what, you’re getting paid for it. And it’s like Mayer says in this article, that’s another six months of living. So what’s better-to have integrity, or whatever integrity is, especially today–or to get your song heard by a ton of people and to get paid?

So after I heard those thoughts from John and Ed and a bunch of people, I thought there’s probably some wisdom in that. So we kept “Until You” and we had the guy who just mixed and produced the Maroon 5 record remix it, and we added a couple more things. Then I wrote a second version of “On a Night Like This” to kind of make it sort of a newer, updated thing.

You know, it’s a really weird thing. Because if there’s anybody out there that’s sort of biting for integrity and maybe to a wrong degree, I am. But the thing I forget is that, yeah, there may be 30 to 40 thousand people out there today who would buy the record. Maybe, on a really good day. But that’s how many billions who aren’t, who haven’t heard it.

So you’ve got to be careful as an artist, because it’s one thing to have integrity. But if you’re really shooting for the moon, swinging for the sky, whatever metaphor you want to use, you can’t forget that while you do have fans, also, the greater part of the universe hasn’t heard of you. So there may be a couple of people who say, well this is weird that he’s putting out old songs. But if you really have faith that it’s gonna get some life and go, hopefully a new chunk of your audience that will be as big if not bigger than the audience you currently have, all of the songs are new.

SSv: You brought up John Mayer and it seems you share a career trajectory there. The early pop balladry, lovelorn songs and the like. And then with Chasing Mississippi, there’s this real distinct musical turn and seemingly a lot less heart-on-my-sleeve approach. Is that a trajectory that you wanted to take? Is it a “start very accessible and then I can do what I want” approach?

Barnes: That’s a really great question. For me, and I think I probably speak for other artists, too, when I say that as an artist, one of the first things you have to do is keep yourself interested. My wife will sort of rip me on, “Why don’t you have more ballads on that record?” And you know, the only thing I can really tell her is if I’m not interested, the gig is up.

So I think, number one, as an artist, I’m always making sure that what I’m writing keeps me interested. But the thing that gets scary is that usually means you have to move from where you began, which is what people know you as. So you have to be careful about the amount of steps that you take, because if you’re not careful, you go from a couple records of acoustic pop to where all you’re listening to is like the Mahavishnu Orchestra or something. And while that really interests you because it’s so different, you forget that your fans haven’t taken that trip with you. And so, it’s sort of they’re standing at the end of this land mass that you used to occupy, and you pop up 20 miles off the coast on some uninhabited island wondering why they aren’t over there with you. So I think you have to be careful that they’re taking the turn with you.

SSv: Do you have to write gradually like that?

Barnes: Yeah, I do. Every record has to set up the next record. So you’re kind of flirting with where this could go next time. I’m really in this to be a career artist. That’s really my hope and prayer at the end of the day is that I can be doing this 30 years. I think fans don’t know this, because I don’t know this and am just starting to realize it. We all want to know that there’s more to what somebody is doing than literally just what they’re doing.

I heard this amazing story about when Fleetwood Mac got through with Rumors, which I think the year it came out it sold somewhere between 10 and 17 million records. They had like five singles, and everybody was floored. They came into Warner Records the next year with Tusk, and they play it for them, and the whole place was just like, “What is this? You come in with a greatest hits record like Rumours, and then you come in with this art piece that’s really bizarre and the single, at best, sounds like a marching band on crack with Tusk.”

But what happened, and I think this is really amazing, is that Lindsey Buckingham, from what I was told, just kind of said, “Look guys, we gave you 17 million records. We need this record to establish ourselves as valid artists. We need to let the world know and musicians and everybody know that we have depth.” And it still worked. They put out other great records.

But I think for artists, there’s something where you need to make sure you’re valid. Being successful is hard. Success, in a weird way for me, doesn’t help me sleep at night in the same way that respect and validity does. So I think every artist in some way is gunning for two things. They want to be successful, but they also want to be respected. And so, respect and success, sadly, they aren’t always blood brothers. You know what I mean?

And so I think when you do that kind of stuff, you have to figure out how to walk that terrifying line of how do I put out records that are engaging, lyrically and musically, but also have enough of a staying sense that when you hear the songs you since them or you want to hear them again. It’s one of the most terrifying things in the world.

SSv: How important is community within that? For me, I would think that if that’s the tension I have to live in, it’s so important for me to align myself with a producer who knows the same thing, and other musicians who understand the same thing.

Barnes: There’s no doubt. You should be an artist-you know too much about this stuff. [Laughs.] That’s the reason Ed’s relationship has been such a huge thing. Because if I made the record I made five years ago with a label, they would have never let me do it, because the songs are way too random and diverse. Like on Brother, Bring the Sun, there’s this reggae song next to a piano ballad next to this song that sounds sort of Van Halen. You know, it doesn’t make any sense, and I think any A&R guy would have looked at it and said, “You’ve got to figure out what angle you’re taking and go for it.”

But Ed loved it, and his whole thesis from the beginning has been, “Hey if it’s a good song, it’s a good song. And because it’s you, it’ll work. If it’s you, and you sing it and you wrote it, it’s going to work.” And we really maintained that idea from the beginning, and in a weird way, it gave me this huge area to work with. Now fans of mine don’t get weirded out. There’s a new song on this record that’s probably the closest to alt-country that I’ve ever been, but I don’t think people are going to be shocked by it, because every record I’ve tried to push farther out on the fences. It’s not like I’m a ballad guy and trying to be a soul guy. There’s a real sense of Dave just kind of writes songs and sings them.

SSv: But you’ve got to still have some of that. I mean, you’ve got to have fans going, “Dude, please write another love song.”

Barnes: That’d be like my wife. [Laughs] You know, I do. And I think I’m fighting pretty hard to try to deliver those the best I can. If I got really lazy and money hungry, I’d probably just write a lot of ballads, because those seem to do really well for me. But I think, every record I’m really trying to fight and get more people on board with the up-tempo songs that are faster than, you know, a slow dance.

So the stuff that’s the most downloaded are still the ballads, but right below those are the songs that are the up-tempo stuff. It’s sort of that arm wrestle you have to do with your fan base all the time. So you’re still trying really hard and saying, “Hey, I know you like this. But come try this!” A couple of steps closer, a couple of steps closer. And I feel so, so fortunate because I think my fans are doing that. And the people that listen are making the trip with me, as opposed to, “Hey I listened to it and now I’m just going to download the slow songs.”

SSv: The last time I talked with you, John Mayer had just written a blog post saying, “Hey, you guys should check out this artist I’ve found, Dave Barnes.” Well now you’re saying you guys are hanging out, talking after a show you did in New York. What trajectory has that taken?

Barnes: You know, it’s been a huge blessing. He’s a very, very private dude. And I think in some ways, you kind of have to be. But he came to a show in New York, like I said. We got to spend some time together afterward, which was great. He invited me to come on the Mayer craft and play for his crew, which was great. But I feel really, really fortunate, I do.

I feel very blessed because there aren’t many guys any more-and we may have talked about this last time-but I was watching this George Harrison benefit. On stage, you have everybody and their mother, like Eric Clapton, Paul McCartney. You know, like Billy Joel is playing the gong or something because there’s just too many people. And it really made me think, twenty years from now, if there’s like a John Mayer tribute, who are the other guys up there? Is it like a bunch of American Idol winners? Who are the career artists going to be?

I don’t really know if there will be a lot of career artists. I don’t know if there will be sort of a Mount Rushmore of pop music, and those are the four who made it through, and everybody else put out two records and now works for hedge funds or sells real estate under their name. [Laughs] I don’t know. I have no clue. But I just feel privileged, because being close to John, I really think he’s the kind of guy who’s got some staying power. I think he’s got great things to say. And at some point, I think the reason all those guys are up there is because they know each other and they really like each other’s music.

SSv: Do you aspire to be one of those guys?

Barnes: Oh, for sure. I don’t aspire to sell billions of records and live a lifestyle where I can’t function because so many people know me. I don’t think I write music that’s honestly accessible enough to do that. But I’d love to among those guys who’ve proven that they have staying power. That’d be a huge honor.

SSv: Best thing for your artistry and the worst thing for your artistry about living in Nashville?

Barnes: They’re actually the same thing: other artists. Weekly, I get a text email or pop into someone who’s like, “Dude, there’s this new dude I saw at 3rd & Lindsley. He juggles and plays guitar with his feet, sings in Spanish, and fire comes out of his ears.” So that’s hard. It’s really hard because there’s really a sense of, “That’s great. One more person who’s trying to fill up the musical spectrum.” But it’s also the great thing, oddly enough.

So it’s really intimidating and terribly frightening in some ways, because you wonder if you’re keeping up with this guy, this band or this girl. But I think the good thing about it’s so inspiring. You get to be around so much art. And I think Nashville is a very curious place, because it’s not just an artist place, it’s a singer-songwriter artist place. People aren’t just judged by how the show is, or how great the guitar player or singer they are. People are listening to songs here. There’s a real sense of, “Where’s the song going? Does it have a good melody? What’s the story? How’s the lyric?”

People don’t leave shows going, “Wow, cool show.” They talk about the cool songs, and how they loved the bridge, or the melody of the chorus. And it means that you really have to know what you’re doing, because it’s hard to be appreciated here without having some skill set that covers all of those things. That’s sort of the currency here, is the songs. There are few things that make me feel better than to know that people in Nashville who work in this industry around town really appreciate the songs.

SSv: Going back to Mayer for a second – have you guys talked about trying to do any kind of musical collaboration.

Barnes: No, we haven’t. He’s very, well, guarded is a severe understatement. I think, you know, he just protects himself very well. And not that I send missiles his way. But I sort of learned very early on that this friendship or whatever is not going to be like other friendships that I have. And I think, because he’s popular, he has to guard himself like he does, it’s sort of sporadic and random. On his terms sounds so negative, but I think that anybody of that caliber is sort of going to be that way.